A hitherto unknown group claiming the heritage of the Sadrist Current has announced that it will not honor the "freeze" of the Mahdi Army militia ordered Wednesday by Muqtada al-Sadr.
In the wake of this week’s rioting in Karbala, Mahdi Army leader and radical Shi’ite cleric Muqtada al-Sadrordered his followers to suspend violent activity for the next six months. One of the focuses of the suspension is to eliminate "rogue elements" from the militia in an increasingly competitive southern Iraq. This tactic apparently has already borne fruit as a previously unknown group has come forward with an unverified statement that rejects the temporary truce and claims they are not covered by the order.
According to Iraq Slogger, they call themselves the "Free Sadr Brigades in All Iraq." In other circles, they are also known as the "Free Man’s Brigade." The group derives their name not from Muqtada al-Sadr but from his father, the late cleric Muhammad Sadiq al-Sadr. While they respect the younger al-Sadr, they say that the "young [Shi’ite] cleric does not enjoy the authority to order the Mahdi Army to “freeze” its activity."
As well as rejecting the suspension order, Iraq Slogger is reporting that the Free Sadr Brigades also accuse Iran of interfering in Iraq and suggest that the recent clashes in Karbala is part of a pro-Iranian conspiracy. They complain that the shrine protection forces are suspiciously distinct from any Iraqi security forces and feel that the forces are under Iranian direction. The Free Sadr Brigades also note that the situation is reminiscent of a revolt following the 1991 Gulf War, in which many Shi’ites were ruthlessly killed by the Saddam regime. They would like the United Nations, the Organization of the Islamic Conference, and human rights groups to step in and determine what actually is going on.
---------
Sadr office warns Iraq govt over Kerbala probe02 Sep 2007 11:30:07 GMT
More BAGHDAD, Sept 2 (Reuters) - Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr's office on Sunday demanded the Iraqi government conduct a fair investigation into clashes in the city of Kerbala last week, warning of unspecified "decisions" if it did not.
The comments raise questions about the powerful movement's commitment to an order from Sadr to suspend armed action by his feared Mehdi Army militia for up to six months in the wake of the violence.
Shi'ite Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki told a news conference he had set up an independent committee to probe the clashes.
"We are trying our best to save the blood of Muslims to stem the strife," said the statement from Sadr's office.
"We warn the Iraqi government ... that if they do not make a fair, neutral and fast investigation the Sadr office will have to take decisions beyond the government's expectations."
A aide to the fiery anti-American cleric declined to elaborate on what that might mean.
The statement, from Sadr's head office in the holy city of Najaf, also accused security forces of detaining more than 200 Sadr supporters following the clashes.
"This reminds us of Saddam's style," the statement said, referring to former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, who persecuted Iraq's majority Shi'ite community.
Iraq's government has said 72 people had been detained, adding that Sadr's followers were not being targeted.
The gunbattles that killed up to 52 people in Kerbala early last week appeared to pit followers of Sadr and his Mehdi Army against the rival Supreme Iraqi Islamic Council (SIIC), whose armed wing controls police in much of the south.
Maliki has blamed "outlawed armed criminal gangs from the remnants of the buried Saddam regime" for the violence.
His office late last week said the Sadr movement was "considered one of basic political blocs in Iraq and will remain an active and a real partner in the political process".
The Sadrist statement called that comment "just ink on a pen".
Arrests and raids by American forces were continuing, the Sadr office statement added.
The U.S. military on Saturday welcomed the suspension order and said it hoped security forces could now focus more on fighting Sunni Islamist al Qaeda.
Sadr's aides have said the order was designed to allow Sadr to weed out rogue elements from the militia.
Saturday, September 01, 2007
Ex-British army chief criticises U.S. over Iraq
Ex-army chief criticises U.S. over Iraq
The head of the army during the Iraq invasion has launched a scathing attack on U.S. post-war policy, The Daily Telegraph reported on Saturday, underlining growing transatlantic strains over Iraq.
General Sir Mike Jackson, a now retired former chief of the general staff, said the approach taken by former U.S. Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was "intellectually bankrupt" and described his comment that U.S. forces "don't do nation-building" as "nonsensical", the paper said.
Jackson's comments, made in his autobiography that is to be serialised in the Telegraph, highlights the deep-seated tension between the British command and the Pentagon during the 2003 Iraq war, the paper said.
Jackson said the entire U.S. approach to tackling global terrorism was "inadequate" because it relied too heavily on military power at the expense of nation-building and diplomacy, the report said.
His intervention comes as U.S. and British officials and experts trade increasingly bitter accusations over the Iraq war, eroding the unity between two countries that were staunch allies in the invasion that toppled Saddam Hussein.
The Daily Telegraph said Jackson was particularly critical of U.S. President George W. Bush's decision to hand control of the post-invasion running of Iraq to the Department of Defence.
"All the planning carried out by the State Department went to waste," he wrote.
Jackson said the U.S. decision to disband the Iraqi army after Saddam's overthrow was "very short-sighted ... We should have kept the Iraqi security services in being and put them under the command of the coalition."
He said he and other senior officers had doubts about the dossier on alleged Iraqi weapons of mass destruction presented by the British government to justify the invasion.
"We all knew that it was impossible for Iraq to threaten the UK mainland," he said.
A Ministry of Defence spokesman said Jackson was a "private individual and is entitled to express his opinion on his former job".
Since Gordon Brown succeeded Tony Blair as prime minister in June, there has been increasing criticism in the U.S. press of British forces' role in southern Iraq and speculation has increased that Brown could speed up the withdrawal of British forces.
Britain fought back against the critics on Friday when its foreign and defence ministers published an editorial in a U.S. newspaper staunchly defending its record.
Britain has 5,500 troops in Basra, southern Iraq. Washington is concerned that if Britain were to pull out, Basra could disintegrate into intra-sectarian fighting.
Jackson is not the first senior British military figure to criticise events in Iraq. In October 2006, army commander General Sir Richard Dannatt said the presence of British troops in Iraq was aggravating the security situation on the ground and they should be withdrawn soon.
The head of the army during the Iraq invasion has launched a scathing attack on U.S. post-war policy, The Daily Telegraph reported on Saturday, underlining growing transatlantic strains over Iraq.
General Sir Mike Jackson, a now retired former chief of the general staff, said the approach taken by former U.S. Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was "intellectually bankrupt" and described his comment that U.S. forces "don't do nation-building" as "nonsensical", the paper said.
Jackson's comments, made in his autobiography that is to be serialised in the Telegraph, highlights the deep-seated tension between the British command and the Pentagon during the 2003 Iraq war, the paper said.
Jackson said the entire U.S. approach to tackling global terrorism was "inadequate" because it relied too heavily on military power at the expense of nation-building and diplomacy, the report said.
His intervention comes as U.S. and British officials and experts trade increasingly bitter accusations over the Iraq war, eroding the unity between two countries that were staunch allies in the invasion that toppled Saddam Hussein.
The Daily Telegraph said Jackson was particularly critical of U.S. President George W. Bush's decision to hand control of the post-invasion running of Iraq to the Department of Defence.
"All the planning carried out by the State Department went to waste," he wrote.
Jackson said the U.S. decision to disband the Iraqi army after Saddam's overthrow was "very short-sighted ... We should have kept the Iraqi security services in being and put them under the command of the coalition."
He said he and other senior officers had doubts about the dossier on alleged Iraqi weapons of mass destruction presented by the British government to justify the invasion.
"We all knew that it was impossible for Iraq to threaten the UK mainland," he said.
A Ministry of Defence spokesman said Jackson was a "private individual and is entitled to express his opinion on his former job".
Since Gordon Brown succeeded Tony Blair as prime minister in June, there has been increasing criticism in the U.S. press of British forces' role in southern Iraq and speculation has increased that Brown could speed up the withdrawal of British forces.
Britain fought back against the critics on Friday when its foreign and defence ministers published an editorial in a U.S. newspaper staunchly defending its record.
Britain has 5,500 troops in Basra, southern Iraq. Washington is concerned that if Britain were to pull out, Basra could disintegrate into intra-sectarian fighting.
Jackson is not the first senior British military figure to criticise events in Iraq. In October 2006, army commander General Sir Richard Dannatt said the presence of British troops in Iraq was aggravating the security situation on the ground and they should be withdrawn soon.
Naqvis; Rizvis & Amrohavis
Ref: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234931658&view=findpost&p=1469527
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234915115&view=findpost&p=1247458
------
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234930876&view=findpost&p=1460817
It is reported in www.Al-shia.com that Hazrat Imam Ali Naqi a.s. had 5 Childrens.
1)Imam Hasan Askari (A.S.) the Eleventh Imam.
2)Husayn.
3)Muhammad (known as Syed Muhammad - Tomb near tomb of Balad).
4)Jafer.
5)Aaliya.
If all Naqvis are from Jafar(son of Imam Naqi A.S).. who is called Kadhab by some and Tawwab by others , then it is a lesson for everone of us that even if he is not acceptable to many Shias, one of his great grandson Hazrat Gufraanmaab (ar) single handedly brought Shiism to fore in India and was the 1st Mujtahid and Maraje from India..
Jais for example was one of the earliest Syed population in India and was taken as his resting place (Jae Aish) by Syed Najmuddin Sabzwari, a revered Ulema, and leader of Momineens who settled and inhabited this land ,in 1027 A.D.. around 400 Hijri.. After some time adjacent Patakpur, 4 mile from Jais, was also inhabited by Momineens and rechristened as Naseerabad after the name of Syed Naseerudin Jaisi.
These Syeds came from Sabzwar near Mashad and hence till date they are known as Sabzwari Syeds.
History of Amroha Shias
The earliest arrival of Muslims in Amroha was associated with Sultan Mohammad Ghaznavi in 1192.
The arrival of Hazrat Sharf-ud-din, better known as Shah Wilayat from who migrated from Wasti, Iraq via Multan is sometimes given as 1271. He died in 1381. In fact Syed Murtaza Alamul Huda , a contemporary scholar, used the title "Shahwilayat" as his name in the supplements to Kanzul Ansab. Syed Murtaza, was a brother of Syed Razi a compiler of Nahajul-Balagha and both were the students of Hazrat Sheikh Mufeed . The development of Amroha was closely associated with Shah Wilayat Al-Naqi, Al-Wasti. He was popularly known as Dada Shahwilayat ("dada" meaning "paternal grandfather", implying that the people of Amroha are descendants of Shah Wilayat). His Dargah or tomb stands in a large enclosure filled with graves of his descendants, where it is said that within the temple area scorpions inflict no harm.
Also read, "Biography: Shah Wilayat" By Syed Muhammad Naqvi.
Here's an excerpt from GOVERNMENT GAZETTIER – 1883 Page 177
Further info in these links:
http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/p.php?p=ahl&url=Introductions
Imam Taqi's mother was Sudanese, and he was African looking, Imam Reza's mother was a Taureg berber, they were both very dark, there are Sayeds in Muritania, descendants of Imam Zain Al-Abideen in the Sudan, and some bonfide Hasani Sayeds in Ghana in a dynasty decsended from Idris ibn Abdullah in Morocco, these are all real Sayeds, and probably more so than a whole lot of fake light skinned Sayeds in Pakistan, or Iran.
Amongst the Pashtun tribes there is a traditon of calling children born on Thursdays Sayed, as it equates with the night of Ziyarat Ashura, so a lot of light skinned fake Pashtun Sayeds.
http://www.familytreedna.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2025&page=3&pp=10
From the office of Grand Ayatullah MakramShirazi
Ref
Ref:
Ref:
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234915115&view=findpost&p=1247458
------
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234930876&view=findpost&p=1460817
It is reported in www.Al-shia.com that Hazrat Imam Ali Naqi a.s. had 5 Childrens.
1)Imam Hasan Askari (A.S.) the Eleventh Imam.
2)Husayn.
3)Muhammad (known as Syed Muhammad - Tomb near tomb of Balad).
4)Jafer.
5)Aaliya.
If all Naqvis are from Jafar(son of Imam Naqi A.S).. who is called Kadhab by some and Tawwab by others , then it is a lesson for everone of us that even if he is not acceptable to many Shias, one of his great grandson Hazrat Gufraanmaab (ar) single handedly brought Shiism to fore in India and was the 1st Mujtahid and Maraje from India..
Jais for example was one of the earliest Syed population in India and was taken as his resting place (Jae Aish) by Syed Najmuddin Sabzwari, a revered Ulema, and leader of Momineens who settled and inhabited this land ,in 1027 A.D.. around 400 Hijri.. After some time adjacent Patakpur, 4 mile from Jais, was also inhabited by Momineens and rechristened as Naseerabad after the name of Syed Naseerudin Jaisi.
These Syeds came from Sabzwar near Mashad and hence till date they are known as Sabzwari Syeds.
History of Amroha Shias
The earliest arrival of Muslims in Amroha was associated with Sultan Mohammad Ghaznavi in 1192.
The arrival of Hazrat Sharf-ud-din, better known as Shah Wilayat from who migrated from Wasti, Iraq via Multan is sometimes given as 1271. He died in 1381. In fact Syed Murtaza Alamul Huda , a contemporary scholar, used the title "Shahwilayat" as his name in the supplements to Kanzul Ansab. Syed Murtaza, was a brother of Syed Razi a compiler of Nahajul-Balagha and both were the students of Hazrat Sheikh Mufeed . The development of Amroha was closely associated with Shah Wilayat Al-Naqi, Al-Wasti. He was popularly known as Dada Shahwilayat ("dada" meaning "paternal grandfather", implying that the people of Amroha are descendants of Shah Wilayat). His Dargah or tomb stands in a large enclosure filled with graves of his descendants, where it is said that within the temple area scorpions inflict no harm.
Also read, "Biography: Shah Wilayat" By Syed Muhammad Naqvi.
Here's an excerpt from GOVERNMENT GAZETTIER – 1883 Page 177
The Saiyids, who are decendants of Ali and Fatima and the Alvis, who are descended from other wives of Ali and are generally included in the former, are said like - wise to have come to India after the destruction of Baghdad by the Mughals, making their way over land through Persia. The first to arrive in Amroha was one Nasir-Uddin, a descendant of Jaffar, the sixth Imam, from whom the Barha saiyids of the Muzaffarnagar district claim to have sprung Nasir-Uddin who was a holy man and was burried in a tomb still standing near the Basdey tank, left many descendant, who still reside in the Naugian Mohalla and other parts of the town. He was, however, of little importance in comparsion with his contemporary and rival Sharf-ud-din, better know as Shah Wilayat and descendent of the tenth Imam, Ali Naqi and there fore of bigger rank. This man was a son of Miran Saiyid Ali, who came to India and settled near Lahore, whence he is said to have moved to the neighbor-hood of Amroha, there founding Miran Sarai, a village same two miles to the south East of the town. His arrival in Amroha is given variously as 1271, During the reign of Balban, and 1301, when Ala-ud-din Mohammad Khilji was on the throne. Both the probably too early for it is generally agreed that his son, Shar-ud-din, came here in the days Firoz Shah, who was anxious to keep him in Delhi. He first lived in a cell still shown in the Pachdara mohalla, but afterwards left Amroha to lead a wandering life in the mountains of Kumaon and else where Subsequently he returned and took up his abode in the jungle to the west of the city. Where he died and was burried in July, 1381. His Dargah or tomb stands in a large enclosure filled with the graves of his descendants, and it is a curious fact that the anniversary of his death is observed not only by the saiyids but also by the Kayasths of the Bartala mohalla, who have long been settled there and in former days used largely to confirm to the Musalman observances. The tomb is most interesting place. This is a foot print of the saint on a stone and one of the trees over-shadowing the shrine is said to have sprung from his riding whip which was buried by his side. The place, like other saints graves, as for example that at Saragil in the Bareilly district abounds in scorpions when are3 reported to be harmless. The story goes that Shah Nasir-ud-din, resenting the intrusion of another saint, sent Sharf-ud-din a bowl full of water, hinting that there was no more room in Amroha. The latter reported by sending back the bowl with a rose floating on the water, Nasir-ud-din accepted the rebuke, but foretold the tomb of the new comer would be infested with scorpions, to which Sharf-ud-din made answer that such a curse would only redound to his credit, in that the scorpions would be unable to sting. Returing the compliment, be added that all the stray donkeys in the place would congregate at Nasir-ud-din's tomb whether to this day every potter in search of a lost donkey repairs. Sharf-ud-din had a daughter, Bakhtoi, who is honoured as a saint, here tomb is being visited by women forty days after childbirth, and two sons. The elder of these was Miran Ali Buzurg and the younger was Abdul Aziz, who won undying distinction for the family by marrying the daughter of Feroz Shah. The descendants of the elder son are relatively unimportant, though several of them rose to posts of some distinction under the Mughul Emperors. The chief was Qazi Saiyid Amir Ali, who was made chief Qazi by Akbar and is mentioned as his host by Ibne Batuta.
Further info in these links:
http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/p.php?p=ahl&url=Introductions
Imam Taqi's mother was Sudanese, and he was African looking, Imam Reza's mother was a Taureg berber, they were both very dark, there are Sayeds in Muritania, descendants of Imam Zain Al-Abideen in the Sudan, and some bonfide Hasani Sayeds in Ghana in a dynasty decsended from Idris ibn Abdullah in Morocco, these are all real Sayeds, and probably more so than a whole lot of fake light skinned Sayeds in Pakistan, or Iran.
Amongst the Pashtun tribes there is a traditon of calling children born on Thursdays Sayed, as it equates with the night of Ziyarat Ashura, so a lot of light skinned fake Pashtun Sayeds.
http://www.familytreedna.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2025&page=3&pp=10
As is known, Prophet Muhammad had no male descendants who survived infancy. However, his nephew (paternal uncle's son) Ali, had male progeny which survives and and its members are known mostly by the following family names in different parts of the Islamic world:
1) "al-Sharif" (as in late King Hussein's clan)
2) "al-Quraish", the tribe to which Prophet Muhammad belonged
3) "Hashmi" (aka Hashemite) ie, those belonging to the "Banu Hashim" clan of al-Quraish tribe
4) "Syed", a common generic surname of anyone claiming to be of Prophet Muhammad's progeny
Now, the problem posed by you could have a simple solution if people with the above surnames were tested and found to have a common lineage (read haplotype). That haplotype, would IN ALL PROBABILITY, be the Y-Line of the Prophet. (This is analogous to the deduction about Genghis Khan's Y-line belonging to Haplogroup C-3, M217).
haplotype: (genetics) A set of alleles of closely linked loci on a chromosome that tend to be inherited together; commonly used in reference to the linked genes of the major histocompatibility complex.
The fact of the matter is that very little testing has been done. I know of only two members of the 'al-Sharif' family on 'ySearch' whose DNA testing has been done as part of a Swedish study. Incredibly, however, an al-Quraish MODAL HAPLOTYPE (most common) has been declared. I am not sure how many subjects have been tested in this study, but to arrive at a modal haplotype declaration, AT LEAST 100 subjects would, to my estimate, be minimally adequate. Anyway, following is the so-called modal haplotype of "al-Quraish" based on 25-markers:
DYS-19 = 14 DYS-385a = 13 DYS-385b = 15 DYS-388 = 12
DYS-389i = 13 DYS-389ii = 29 DYS-390 = 21 DYS-391 = 10
DYS-392 = 11 DYS-393 = 15 DYS-426 = 11 DYS-437 = 16
DYS-439 = 11 DYS-447=24 DYS-448 = 22 DYS-449 = 29
DYS-454 = 11 DYS-455 = 11 DYS-458 = 16 DYS-459a = 9
DYS-459b = 9 DYS-464a = 12 DYS-464b = 13 DYS-464c = 14
DYS-464d = 14
The Haplogroup assigned to the above is G in one case & G-2 in the other. This group is not unusual in Middle East, though its spread is biased more towards the Caucasus.
The IDs of the above samples are AT5U9 and FXYWN on 'ySearch'.
Now an interesting aside to the same. I had a discussion on the subject with one of the leading geneticists of my country Pakistan, who had carried out a study of many males who claimed to be "Syeds". Incredibly, he reports ELEVEN grossly different haplotypes amongst these 'nobles'. What it implies is that borrowing/hijacking of famous surnames has been, historically, a practice in this part of the world (and perhaps other places too). The geneticist that I am referring to is world-reknown and he prefers not to be quoted on this finding of his, as he does not want to be embroiled in a controversy that can inflame passions in no time. He says light-heartedly that his being a Syed (his surname) is also in question now!
Nevertheless, my hunch is that the further away from the Arab/Islamic heartland, ie Saudi Arabia, you go, the more 'varieties' of Sharifs, Syeds, Hashmis and Qureshis would spring up. If this observation of mine has some substance, I think that the purest line would be that of the Arabian peninsula males who call themselves by any of the above surnames. Yes, it would be worthwhile to test at least a 100 of them, and then arrive at what may be called an al-Quraish haplotype. Another reason that this would be a true reflection of the al-Quraish/Hashemite/al-Sharif/Syed lineage is that Arabs, particularly those of the peninsula, are fiercely possessive about family names and are very meticulous in maintaining their lineages. It would be very difficult to switch lineages in Arabia without being ostracised socially.
Your suggestion about finding a 'Cohen' type is quite valid, if only for the limited knowledge about this aspect amongst those who have claims to this noble lineage. What is needed is a project, as you suggested. Let's see if we can get things moving by this discussion.
From the office of Grand Ayatullah MakramShirazi
From the office of Ahlulbayt world Assembly:
In the Name of Allah (s.w.t.)
Dear Brother
Assalamu alikum
In response to your following questions, please be informed that the literal meaning of Syed is Master, Lord, nobleman. However, it is also a title assigned to the offspring (descendants) of the Holy Prophet of Islam (s.a.), also to those whose lineage goes back to Hashem son of Manaf (the forefather of Holy Prophet).
In Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) there are some special laws with regards to this group of descendants of Holy Prophets.
Respecting Syeds (the offspring of the Holy Prophet s.a.) is much recommended in the books of Shiite narrations, some examples we quote as follows:
The Holy Prophet of Islam (s.a.) is quoted as saying:
1- I will intercede for those who help my offspring with their hands (practically) and tongues (verbally) and money (financially).
2- Respect my offspring, and follow my etiquettes very well.
3- Love my pious offspring for Allah's sake and evil ones for my sake.
4- Whoever respects my offspring has actually respected me.
5- There are four groups of people for whom I shall intercede on the day of resurrection: those who respect my offspring after me; those who shall fulfill the needs of my offspring; those who struggle to put the affairs of my offspring in order when they are in desperate need; and those who love my offspring with their hearts and through their words.
Reference: The Book entitled 'The Collection of Shiite Hadiths' by Ayatollah Borujerdi, Vol.16, P.192
Wassalmau alaikum
The Ahlul-Bayt World Assembly
Ref
The Holy Prophet of Islam (s.a.) is quoted as saying:
1- I will intercede for those who help my offspring with their hands (practically) and tongues (verbally) and money (financially).
2- Respect my offspring, and follow my etiquettes very well.
3- Love my pious offspring for Allah's sake and evil ones for my sake.
4- Whoever respects my offspring has actually respected me.
5- There are four groups of people for whom I shall intercede on the day of resurrection: those who respect my offspring after me; those who shall fulfill the needs of my offspring; those who struggle to put the affairs of my offspring in order when they are in desperate need; and those who love my offspring with their hearts and through their words.
Reference: The Book entitled 'The Collection of Shiite Hadiths' by Ayatollah Borujerdi, Vol.16, P.192
Quranic and ahadith references:
Reference1:
Here is an example of a Quranic verse in which Allah gives fazeelah to a group of people:
" Allah did chose Adam and Noah , the family of Abrahim, and the family of Imran above all people. Offspring one of the other: And Allah heareth and knoweth all things " [3:33 - 34]
So if we believe that Allah's will of giving fazeelah to the progeny of the Prophet is a discrimination, then we might as well protest against this verse as well. But we know very well that in this verse, Allah is not discriminating; rather giving a fazeelah to the oppsprings of those Prophets.
Reference 2:
'And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire, a fifth share is assigned to Allah, and to the Messenger, and to the near relatives, and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, if you believe in Allah and in that which We revealed to Our servant, on the day of distinction, the day on which the two parties met; and Allah has power over all things '
Tafsir by Imam Reza a.s: God has made the share of the Prophet's famliy to be similar to His share as well as the share of His Messenger. This is the distinction between the Prophet's family and the nation, whom God has situated in a place, and situated the Prophet's family in another higher place. Besides, the Almighty God chose for the Prophet's family what He chose for Himself. He chose a share of the booty (Plunder taken from an enemy in time of war.) for them. He begins by mentioning Himself, His Messenger and then the kindred.(A group of related persons, as a clan or tribe.) This is operative not only in the spoils(Goods or property seized from a victim after a conflict, especially after a military victory.) of war but also in everything that God accepts for Himself and for them.
This Holy saying is an affirmative declaration and an everlasting commandment for them, all the way uptil the day of the ressurection in the ever-speaking book of God that says, "No falsehood can approach it from before and behind it; it is sent down by one full wisdom, Worthy of all praise"
And regarding His words, '...orphans, the needy' , it is natural that the share of the orphan should be stopped when their feature of orphanage ceases to exist. The same thing can be said about the share of the needy. While on the other hand, the share of the Prophet's kindred, whether they are needy or not, is incessant up until the ressurection day, because no one is wealthier than God or the Prophet. Thus, what He has liked for himself, He has also liked for His Prophet . (1)
Reference 3:
Now regarding the proof that Allah disallows anyone to even wish for the fazeelah which He gives to certain people over others, here is an example,
" And do not wish for the fazeelah which Allah has given to some of you than others; men shall have the benefit of what they earn and women shall have the benefit of what they earn . But do ask for Allah's Fazl. For Allah knows all" [4:32]
Having quoted above references, I do wish to advise that we are not to take the above in wrong sense. One does not need to have inferiority complex against other shiachat members or mates, when discussing Syeds - By Syeds, I mean the progeny of the Prophet P.b.u.H - What one needs to learn from above is that, whenever one finds oneself being unjust, unfiar, rude, cruel, oppressor and an enemy of a person who is from the progeny of the Prophet of Allah, then one must realise the fazeelah which Allah bestowed on them, and realise the seriousness of His errors. A momin should remember that he or she is the enemy of the enemies of the Prophet and His progeny. While keeping this belief, if he starts having the same jealousy and hatred, as did the enemies of our Imams, then he/she is pretty much the victim of the same trap, as were the people in the past.
Love and respect is a Momin's asset, not just for one particular group, but for everyone. (exclusions apply) The fact that this love and respect is excusively mentioned in Quran regarding the progeny of the Prophet, does not mean that other Muslims are excluded; rather it stresses the importance of this group which is, although equal to you and others, in the court of Allah, but has been bestowed a special priviledge by Allah.
Fi-Amanillah
================
(1) Uyun AKhbar Vol 1 Chapter: Difference between Nation and the Progeny of the Prophet.
Ref:
قَالَ يَا آدَمُ أَنبِئْهُم
بِأَسْمَآئِهِمْ فَلَمَّا أَنبَأَهُمْ بِأَسْمَآئِهِمْ قَالَ أَلَمْ أَقُل لَّكُمْ
إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ غَيْبَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَأَعْلَمُ مَا تُبْدُونَ وَمَا
كُنتُمْ تَكْتُمُونَ
He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he
had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the
secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and
which ye hide. (2:33)
A commentary to this
QUOTE
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:33]
Through
Adam the angels became acquainted with the glory of the glorious beings. When
Adam, at the command of Allah, stated the names, qualities and symbols of those
highest beings whose collective and comprehensive status can be termed as
wisdom personified, the angels witnessed the glory of the infinite power and
wisdom of the Lord that could create such perfect beings of the highest
calibre, in substance as well as in style, like of whom they did not know till
then.
In
Durr Manthur, Jalaluddin Sayuti says that the Holy Prophet had said: "The
objects shown to the angels were five lights. Allah informed the angels
pointing to each of the lights respectively:
(i) This is Muhammad, the most praised, derived from
My name, the praised one.
(ii) This is Ali, the high, derived from My name, the
highest.
(iii) This is Fatimah, the original, derived from my
name, the originator of the heavens and the earth.
(iv) This is Hasan, the bountiful, derived from My
name, the benefactor.
(v) This is Husayn, the good, derived from My name,
the good in origin.
O
angels! It is in love of these five that I have created the universe."
It
becomes a logical conclusion that since Allah willed these five lights of glory
to be manifested through Adam, he had been appointed as the khalifa of
Allah, and through these lights Allah's light had been destined to be
manifested.
As
Allah is aware of all the "unseen" in the universe, He knew that the
angels secretly thought themselves more deserving than Adam to be chosen as
Allah's khalifa. After seeing the glory of the five lights, endowed in
the seed of Adam, they accepted their ignorance and submitted to Allah's
decision.
OK now here no where does it say that there decendents have anything do with them. Allah created our souls long before our blood or bones or whatever. Imam ali was meant to be khalifa not because he was related to the prophet but because his soul was as you called it given fazeelah or fathela.
so that should make clear the distinction between soul and body. We call sayids sayids based on there bloodlines.
The prophet fatima hasan and hussein (saw,as) were created before the rest of us. Our souls are independent of our bloodline. Take abu lahab for example he had the prophets blood, he has a sura that describes his punishment(sura 111). Thus from those two statements ive pointed out its clear that bloodline has no relevance as our souls were created first and seperatly.
Now no where in the hadiths you mentioned does it mention to give to the prophets decendents special elavation or respect. The way I understand it is that the 12 Imams were the one and only true decendents of the prophet and in the sense they were ahl al bait.
Another aya
إِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ
لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي خَالِقٌ بَشَرًا مِن طِين
Behold, thy
Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay38:71)
فَإِذَا سَوَّيْتُهُ وَنَفَخْتُ فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِي
فَقَعُوا لَهُ سَاجِدِينَ
And when I
have fashioned him and breathed into him of My Spirit, then fall down before
him prostrate,(38:72)
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَى وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
[Yusufali 49:13] O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
Now the commentary
Pooya/Ali Commentary 49:13
The Holy Prophet said:
"Do not take pride in superior birth, tribe or nation."
It is said that once the disciples of Isa asked him as to who was to be considered as superior among men. Isa took a handful of dust in his hand and said:
"All man are from the dust and they shall return to dust. In the eyes of God he is most honoured who is most righteous."
This verse renders null and void all distinctions based on race, colour, caste and social position. Taqwa (obedience to Allah and His laws) is the only criterion for superiority or honour.
The Holy Prophet said:
"No man is superior to another on account of race or colour, taqwa (wisdom and piety) alone is the distinction."
In this way man finds his individual as well as collective freedom, material progress and spiritual happiness, peace and order in Islam.
To have an idea of taqwa refer to the commentary of Baqarah: 2 to 5 and 177. Maximum degree of taqwa is found in the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt.
For both of your references it doesnt distinctively say for there decendents thats a v important point
And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire, a fifth share is assigned to Allah, and to the Messenger, and to the near relatives, and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, if you believe in Allah and in that which We revealed to Our servant, on the day of distinction, the day on which the two parties met; and Allah has power over all things '
The tafsir doesnt mention decendents it mentions family.... Now his immediate family from the above i mentioned were the reason man was created in the first place
"angels! It is in love of these five that I have created the universe."" (refer to above)
quran clearly says
Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).49:13
Ref:
I beg to differ. The Prophet and the Imam were related even before coming to this world. This is because they were created from the same Nur. And in this world, one of the criteria's of the 12 Imams, was that they were to be from the Prophet's family. The following narration proves that Divine Leadership was exclusive to the family of the Prophet:
Once someone asked Imam Reza, " Why is it not permissible for the Divine Leader to be from the family different from that of the Messenger of God "
Imam replied, " For several reasons. One of them is that there should be a sign to clearly indicate the Divine Leader and distinguish Him from others, since it is obligatory to obey him. That sign is his well-known ties of kinship with the Prophet and his clear appointment so that the people can distinguish him from others, and be clearly guided towards him.
Another reason is that should the Divine Leader be one who is from a different family from that of the Messenger, then one who is not from the family of the Prophet would become nobler than those from the family of the Prophet. In this way the offspring of the Prophet would become subject to the offsprings of the Prophet's enemies such as Abi Jahl and Ibn Abi Ma'eet; since they believed that if they have faith, the Divine Leadership could be transffered from the Prophet's offsprings to the offsprings of the enemies. Then this would result in the offspring of the Prophet to be subject and obedient ones, while the offsprings of the enemies of God be the ones to be followed and obeyed. However, the Messenger is much nobler than other to be in charge, and He is the one who desrves to be obeyed.
Another reason is that once the people testify to the Prophethood of His Messenger and obey Him, no one would hesitate to follow his offsrping and obey them. This would not be hard for anyone. However if the Divine Leader be the one who is not from the household of the Prophet, everyone would consider himself to be more deserving for his position that others. Thus they would become so haughty that they would not obey him since they consider him to be less deserving of leadership than they themselves. Then this would cause corruption, discord and disunion amongst themselves.
- UA Al-Reza Vol 2
QUOTE(mahdi_123456 @ Aug 14 2007, 06:27 AM)
The prophet fatima hasan and hussein (saw,as) were created before the rest of us. Our souls are independent of our bloodline. Take abu lahab for example he had the prophets blood, he has a sura that describes his punishment(sura 111). Thus from those two statements ive pointed out its clear that bloodline has no relevance as our souls were created first and seperatly.
Bro why don't you first research the teachings of the Prophet and Imams to find out whom they refer to the Prophet's family and His progeny.
QUOTE(mahdi_123456 @ Aug 14 2007, 06:27 AM)
Now no where in the hadiths you mentioned does it mention to give to the prophets decendents special elavation or respect. The way I understand it is that the 12 Imams were the one and only true decendents of the prophet and in the sense they were ahl al bait.
I believe I have already shared enough ahadith with you to prove my point. And I can bombard this thread with more but it's of no use; rather a waste of time. Because you are taking this issue towards the wrong end. If history of Islam has dedicated certain chapters exclusive to sa'dat, and established their distinction, it doesn't mean that they don't have chapters and narrations dedicated to the fazeelah of rest of the nation. Perhaps I need to quote some of them, for this may help non-sadaa't feel better and share the 'pride'
Regarding your statement that you only see the 12 Imams as the true descendants of the Prophet, well you have the right to hold your views. My intention is not to argue; rather I shared sources, which I thought would help answer your initial query and further questions.
QUOTE(mahdi_123456 @ Aug 14 2007, 06:27 AM)
Anyways I still have yet to see a strong unquestioable evidence or proof that the concept of sayid exists and that they should be respected above others. I respect and love the prophet more then I love myself, I dont recall reading that I should respect anyone because they are decends of him. And as the quran clearly says
Well if you don't recall, I can perhaps assist you and refer to the Quranic verse where the Prophet specifically asks you to love his family.
' No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin '
Imam Reza: This is a special peculiarity of the Prophet and his family up until the ressurection day , and that of no other family.
Also to end this discussion, I quote a hadith of the Prophet:
' What has happened to the people who say that blood relationship with me shall have no benefit on the Day of Judgement. Yes by Allah ! My womb relation is linked here and hereafter. '
- Al-Amaali
Fi-Amanillah
Film on trauma of troops back from Iraq hits Venice
By Mike Collett-White
VENICE (Reuters) - The scars from the Iraq war do not heal when U.S. soldiers return home, says a powerful new film starring Tommy Lee Jones that keeps the conflict at the heart of the Venice film festival this year.
After Brian De Palma's "Redacted"(The act or process of editing or revising a piece of writing; preparation for publication.) stunned audiences with its reconstruction of horrific events in Iraq, Paul Haggis' "In the Valley of Elah" (Elah (ē'lə) , in the Bible.
1 King of Israel, son and successor of Baasha. He was murdered, and succeeded, by Zimri.
2 Father of Hoshea, last king of Israel.
) brings a more nuanced, yet moving account of the brutality some soldiers bring back to the United States.
Jones has the critics searching for the superlatives as a man whose son is murdered after returning from Iraq, and as he pieces together what happened, the Vietnam war veteran begins to question his faith in his country and its policies.
One of the defining images of the film is the American flag flying upside down, a sign of a nation in distress.
Haggis said he had tried not to allow his personal opinion about the war in Iraq to influence "Elah" too heavily.
"We set about to make a political film certainly, but not a partisan film," he told a news conference in Venice, where the film has its world premiere on Saturday.
He said that although support for the Iraq war had waned in the United States, he began putting "Elah" together when the invasion was still popular.
"When we started on this project, our president had an 80 percent approval rating, everyone was driving around with flags on their cars and our president was telling us that it was unpatriotic to even question what was happening in Iraq.
"At that time all these films were very difficult to get financed, very difficult to make."
Clint Eastwood was among those who helped get the project off the ground, Haggis said in his production notes.
TRUE STORY
The film is inspired by the true story of a soldier whose father investigates his mysterious death near his army base in the United States in 2003. He learns his son was stabbed to death by comrades, two of whom were convicted of the murder.
Jones plays the taciturn Hank Deerfield, who downloads images from his dead son's mobile phone that offer grainy glimpses of what he went through in Iraq, and reveal that Mike was not the model soldier his father believed him to be.
Jones, 60, was not in Venice because he was undergoing eye surgery, according to Haggis.
Charlize Theron and Susan Sarandon play a local detective and Mike's mother respectively.
Theron said U.S. troops in Iraq were doing a "serious and important" job, but added: "I'd like to see them come home, to be looked after, be nurtured, and nothing would give me more joy than to see them here back in America."
"Elah" bears comparison to movies about the fallout of Vietnam on Americans -- "Coming Home" and "The Deer Hunter" -- both made after that conflict had ended.
In the case of Iraq and Afghanistan, at least six films on the topic are due out soon as the operations continue.
Haggis, whose 2005 film "Crash" was an Oscar for best picture, said this was partly because journalists were failing.
"During the Vietnam war, we had terrific journalists doing their job, reporting on things that we didn't want to hear ... Now we don't have that. I think that when that doesn't happen, then it's the responsibility of the artist to ask those difficult questions."
(For blogs about the Venice film festival, please see: http://blogs.reuters.com/category/events/venice-2007/)
VENICE (Reuters) - The scars from the Iraq war do not heal when U.S. soldiers return home, says a powerful new film starring Tommy Lee Jones that keeps the conflict at the heart of the Venice film festival this year.
After Brian De Palma's "Redacted"(The act or process of editing or revising a piece of writing; preparation for publication.) stunned audiences with its reconstruction of horrific events in Iraq, Paul Haggis' "In the Valley of Elah" (Elah (ē'lə) , in the Bible.
1 King of Israel, son and successor of Baasha. He was murdered, and succeeded, by Zimri.
2 Father of Hoshea, last king of Israel.
) brings a more nuanced, yet moving account of the brutality some soldiers bring back to the United States.
Jones has the critics searching for the superlatives as a man whose son is murdered after returning from Iraq, and as he pieces together what happened, the Vietnam war veteran begins to question his faith in his country and its policies.
One of the defining images of the film is the American flag flying upside down, a sign of a nation in distress.
Haggis said he had tried not to allow his personal opinion about the war in Iraq to influence "Elah" too heavily.
"We set about to make a political film certainly, but not a partisan film," he told a news conference in Venice, where the film has its world premiere on Saturday.
He said that although support for the Iraq war had waned in the United States, he began putting "Elah" together when the invasion was still popular.
"When we started on this project, our president had an 80 percent approval rating, everyone was driving around with flags on their cars and our president was telling us that it was unpatriotic to even question what was happening in Iraq.
"At that time all these films were very difficult to get financed, very difficult to make."
Clint Eastwood was among those who helped get the project off the ground, Haggis said in his production notes.
TRUE STORY
The film is inspired by the true story of a soldier whose father investigates his mysterious death near his army base in the United States in 2003. He learns his son was stabbed to death by comrades, two of whom were convicted of the murder.
Jones plays the taciturn Hank Deerfield, who downloads images from his dead son's mobile phone that offer grainy glimpses of what he went through in Iraq, and reveal that Mike was not the model soldier his father believed him to be.
Jones, 60, was not in Venice because he was undergoing eye surgery, according to Haggis.
Charlize Theron and Susan Sarandon play a local detective and Mike's mother respectively.
Theron said U.S. troops in Iraq were doing a "serious and important" job, but added: "I'd like to see them come home, to be looked after, be nurtured, and nothing would give me more joy than to see them here back in America."
"Elah" bears comparison to movies about the fallout of Vietnam on Americans -- "Coming Home" and "The Deer Hunter" -- both made after that conflict had ended.
In the case of Iraq and Afghanistan, at least six films on the topic are due out soon as the operations continue.
Haggis, whose 2005 film "Crash" was an Oscar for best picture, said this was partly because journalists were failing.
"During the Vietnam war, we had terrific journalists doing their job, reporting on things that we didn't want to hear ... Now we don't have that. I think that when that doesn't happen, then it's the responsibility of the artist to ask those difficult questions."
(For blogs about the Venice film festival, please see: http://blogs.reuters.com/category/events/venice-2007/)
What might await exiled ex-PM in Pakistan
FACTBOX: What might await exiled ex-PM in PakistanFri Aug 31, 2007 11:22PM EDT
(Reuters) - Exiled former Pakistani leader Nawaz Sharif said in London on Thursday he would return home on September 10 to challenge military leader President Pervez Musharraf.
Musharraf overthrew Sharif in a 1999 coup. Sharif was later given a life sentence on a hijacking charge related to his refusal to allow landing rights to an airliner carrying Musharraf back from Sri Lanka, despite it being short of fuel.
The government said Sharif was allowed to go into exile in 2000 after agreeing to stay out of the country for 10 years. But he denied any such agreement and successfully petitioned the Supreme Court to clear the way for his return.
Following are scenarios of what might await Sharif if he returns:
-- He could be deported upon arrival, as his brother, Shahbaz, was on May 11, 2004.
Shahbaz, who is also an exiled politician facing criminal charges and also aims to come back on September 10, flew into Lahore on a scheduled flight in 2004.
Police served him with an arrest warrant at the airport before putting him on an unscheduled Pakistan International Airways flight to Saudi Arabia. He spent less than 90 minutes in the country.
-- He could be arrested.
Following the August 23 court ruling that Nawaz Sharif and his brother had an "inalienable right" to come back, Attorney General Malik Abdul Qayyum said if the agreement on the 10-year exile was considered void, Nawaz Sharif could face the prison term he avoided by leaving.
An anti-corruption court has reopened three cases against Sharif and will resume its hearing on September 7. The complaints relate to a paper mill, a foundry and some real estate, the state news agency reported.
-- He could be allowed to proceed as planned.
Sharif told reporters in London he would fly into Islamabad airport and would then travel to the nearby city of Rawalpindi, where the army has its headquarters.
From there he said he aimed to travel by road to the eastern city of Lahore, 300 km (200 miles) to the southeast. Lahore is Sharif's powerbase and the nerve centre of Pakistani politics.
Supporters are bound to accompany him on the journey and party faithful will mob his convoy as he passes though towns. His journey would likely take much longer than the usual four hours.
(Reuters) - Exiled former Pakistani leader Nawaz Sharif said in London on Thursday he would return home on September 10 to challenge military leader President Pervez Musharraf.
Musharraf overthrew Sharif in a 1999 coup. Sharif was later given a life sentence on a hijacking charge related to his refusal to allow landing rights to an airliner carrying Musharraf back from Sri Lanka, despite it being short of fuel.
The government said Sharif was allowed to go into exile in 2000 after agreeing to stay out of the country for 10 years. But he denied any such agreement and successfully petitioned the Supreme Court to clear the way for his return.
Following are scenarios of what might await Sharif if he returns:
-- He could be deported upon arrival, as his brother, Shahbaz, was on May 11, 2004.
Shahbaz, who is also an exiled politician facing criminal charges and also aims to come back on September 10, flew into Lahore on a scheduled flight in 2004.
Police served him with an arrest warrant at the airport before putting him on an unscheduled Pakistan International Airways flight to Saudi Arabia. He spent less than 90 minutes in the country.
-- He could be arrested.
Following the August 23 court ruling that Nawaz Sharif and his brother had an "inalienable right" to come back, Attorney General Malik Abdul Qayyum said if the agreement on the 10-year exile was considered void, Nawaz Sharif could face the prison term he avoided by leaving.
An anti-corruption court has reopened three cases against Sharif and will resume its hearing on September 7. The complaints relate to a paper mill, a foundry and some real estate, the state news agency reported.
-- He could be allowed to proceed as planned.
Sharif told reporters in London he would fly into Islamabad airport and would then travel to the nearby city of Rawalpindi, where the army has its headquarters.
From there he said he aimed to travel by road to the eastern city of Lahore, 300 km (200 miles) to the southeast. Lahore is Sharif's powerbase and the nerve centre of Pakistani politics.
Supporters are bound to accompany him on the journey and party faithful will mob his convoy as he passes though towns. His journey would likely take much longer than the usual four hours.
Finland will settle Iraqi crisis!!!
Iraqi Shi'ite, Sunni officials meet in Finland01 Sep 2007 12:53:24 GMT
Source: Reuters
More HELSINKI, Sept 1 (Reuters) - Iraqi Shi'ite and Sunni Arab officials met in Finland on Saturday to discuss ways to end the sectarian violence crippling the country, a spokeswoman for the group organising the gathering said on Saturday. "The seminar has started well," Crisis Management Initiative director of operations Meeri-Maria Jaarva told Reuters.
Jaarva said Sunni and Shi'ite representatives were attending, but declined to name them.
An official from the powerful Supreme Iraqi Islamic Council (SIIC) said one of its senior officials, Akram al-Hakim, was at the meeting. Hakim is a minister of state for national dialogue in the Iraqi cabinet.
The official, speaking in Baghdad, said Sunni Arab politician Saleh al-Mutlaq and a senior official from the Shi'ite Dawa party of Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki were also there.
Finnish national broadcaster YLE said representatives of anti-American Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr were attending, but two senior aides to the firebrand in Iraq said they were not aware of the event.
Jaarva said discussions began on Friday. Participants were looking at ways to stop the violence in Iraq and how Iraq could use peace models from Northern Ireland and South Africa to settle its own crisis.
Besides sectarian chaos, tension among Shi'ite groups has been rising, especially in Iraq's predominantly Shi'ite south.
Gunbattles that killed up to 52 people in the Shi'ite city of Kerbala this week appeared to pit followers of Sadr and his Mehdi Army against SIIC, whose armed wing controls police in much of the south.
The conference is organised by CMI and the University of Massachusetts' John W. McCormack Institute.
CMI is a non-governmental organisation headed by former Finnish President Martti Ahtisaari, who has been active in Kosovo and Aceh, Indonesia talks since his presidency ended. (Additional reporting by Waleed Ibrahim in Baghdad and Terhi Kinnunen in Helsinki)
Source: Reuters
More HELSINKI, Sept 1 (Reuters) - Iraqi Shi'ite and Sunni Arab officials met in Finland on Saturday to discuss ways to end the sectarian violence crippling the country, a spokeswoman for the group organising the gathering said on Saturday. "The seminar has started well," Crisis Management Initiative director of operations Meeri-Maria Jaarva told Reuters.
Jaarva said Sunni and Shi'ite representatives were attending, but declined to name them.
An official from the powerful Supreme Iraqi Islamic Council (SIIC) said one of its senior officials, Akram al-Hakim, was at the meeting. Hakim is a minister of state for national dialogue in the Iraqi cabinet.
The official, speaking in Baghdad, said Sunni Arab politician Saleh al-Mutlaq and a senior official from the Shi'ite Dawa party of Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki were also there.
Finnish national broadcaster YLE said representatives of anti-American Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr were attending, but two senior aides to the firebrand in Iraq said they were not aware of the event.
Jaarva said discussions began on Friday. Participants were looking at ways to stop the violence in Iraq and how Iraq could use peace models from Northern Ireland and South Africa to settle its own crisis.
Besides sectarian chaos, tension among Shi'ite groups has been rising, especially in Iraq's predominantly Shi'ite south.
Gunbattles that killed up to 52 people in the Shi'ite city of Kerbala this week appeared to pit followers of Sadr and his Mehdi Army against SIIC, whose armed wing controls police in much of the south.
The conference is organised by CMI and the University of Massachusetts' John W. McCormack Institute.
CMI is a non-governmental organisation headed by former Finnish President Martti Ahtisaari, who has been active in Kosovo and Aceh, Indonesia talks since his presidency ended. (Additional reporting by Waleed Ibrahim in Baghdad and Terhi Kinnunen in Helsinki)
Friday, August 31, 2007
Last-ditch efforts to clinch deal with BB, block Sharifs’ return
* Lt Gen (r) Hamid Javed off to London again, Tariq Aziz still there
* Talks with MMA being considered if dialogue with PPP fails
By Rana Qaisar
ISLAMABAD: Following a deadlock in the Musharraf-Benazir talks and Nawaz Sharif’s decision to land in Islamabad on September 10, the government made a last-ditch effort on Friday by activating two different diplomatic channels to “clinch” a deal with Benazir and “stop” Nawaz from returning to Pakistan.
Sources told Daily Times that contacts were established with the British and Saudi governments after the president consulted and briefed the PML leaders on the “proposals” being discussed with Benazir, and Nawaz’s decision to return. Inside sources said that after Benazir declined to postpone the joint meeting of her party’s central working committee and federal council beyond August 31, it was decided to involve a “common friend” through diplomatic channels to act as guarantor and broker a “deal” between the president and the PPP chairwoman.
The “common friend” is the British government and a meeting between a senior British official and Benazir took place before the latter chaired her party meeting. The CEC meeting is expected to continue late into the night. PPP Information Secretary Sherry Rehman confirmed to Daily Times from London that a meeting had indeed taken place between British Foreign Secretary David Miliband and Benazir. “It was a meeting, not a call on,” Rehman insisted, adding that the “forthcoming election(s)” were discussed.
It may be mentioned here that the former British high commissioner to Islamabad, Mark Lyall Grant, was earlier involved in contacts between the Pakistan government and the two former premiers. Grant is presently political director at the British Foreign Office and is said to be in touch with NSC Secretary Tariq Aziz who is still in London and in constant touch with Rehman Malik, who is the interlocutor from Benazir’s side. It is learnt that President Musharraf’s Chief of Staff Lt Gen (r) Hamid Javed will arrive in London today (Saturday) with a “message” for Benazir before the announcement of the decisions to be taken at the PPP meeting. He may be accompanied by ISI DG Lt Gen Ashfaq Kayani, but this could not be confirmed.
However, sources said the government was keeping all its options open to get the president re-elected even if a “deal” with Benazir could not be finalised. A meeting chaired by President Musharraf and attended by Chaudhry Shujaat discussed all “possibilities and options”.
Among the possibilities and options available to the government a dialogue with the MMA, particularly with Maulana Fazlur Rehman, was top priority in case Benazir did not show any flexibility on the issues of Article 58(2-b) and the president’s uniform.
"No understanding has been arrived at," she told a news conference in London of her negotiations with Musharraf that would see him quit as army chief and Bhutto return to become prime minister.
"I will be going back to Pakistan very soon, on Sep14"
* Talks with MMA being considered if dialogue with PPP fails
By Rana Qaisar
ISLAMABAD: Following a deadlock in the Musharraf-Benazir talks and Nawaz Sharif’s decision to land in Islamabad on September 10, the government made a last-ditch effort on Friday by activating two different diplomatic channels to “clinch” a deal with Benazir and “stop” Nawaz from returning to Pakistan.
Sources told Daily Times that contacts were established with the British and Saudi governments after the president consulted and briefed the PML leaders on the “proposals” being discussed with Benazir, and Nawaz’s decision to return. Inside sources said that after Benazir declined to postpone the joint meeting of her party’s central working committee and federal council beyond August 31, it was decided to involve a “common friend” through diplomatic channels to act as guarantor and broker a “deal” between the president and the PPP chairwoman.
The “common friend” is the British government and a meeting between a senior British official and Benazir took place before the latter chaired her party meeting. The CEC meeting is expected to continue late into the night. PPP Information Secretary Sherry Rehman confirmed to Daily Times from London that a meeting had indeed taken place between British Foreign Secretary David Miliband and Benazir. “It was a meeting, not a call on,” Rehman insisted, adding that the “forthcoming election(s)” were discussed.
It may be mentioned here that the former British high commissioner to Islamabad, Mark Lyall Grant, was earlier involved in contacts between the Pakistan government and the two former premiers. Grant is presently political director at the British Foreign Office and is said to be in touch with NSC Secretary Tariq Aziz who is still in London and in constant touch with Rehman Malik, who is the interlocutor from Benazir’s side. It is learnt that President Musharraf’s Chief of Staff Lt Gen (r) Hamid Javed will arrive in London today (Saturday) with a “message” for Benazir before the announcement of the decisions to be taken at the PPP meeting. He may be accompanied by ISI DG Lt Gen Ashfaq Kayani, but this could not be confirmed.
However, sources said the government was keeping all its options open to get the president re-elected even if a “deal” with Benazir could not be finalised. A meeting chaired by President Musharraf and attended by Chaudhry Shujaat discussed all “possibilities and options”.
Among the possibilities and options available to the government a dialogue with the MMA, particularly with Maulana Fazlur Rehman, was top priority in case Benazir did not show any flexibility on the issues of Article 58(2-b) and the president’s uniform.
"No understanding has been arrived at," she told a news conference in London of her negotiations with Musharraf that would see him quit as army chief and Bhutto return to become prime minister.
"I will be going back to Pakistan very soon, on Sep14"
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